Curse

Winterclaw · Dec 31, 2008, 05:10 AM // 05:10

I'd like to propose that in theory [symbolic strike] isn't that bad a skill to have along for a warrior under one condition: you don't get carried away. This skill seems like it would have use on a properly constructed warrior bar.

Usually a warrior's bar is supposed to look something like this:
1. Elite Attack
2. Attack
3. Attack
4. Attack
5. IAS
6. Cancel stance/utility skill
7. Utility
8. Res

So let's use this uber-basic set up: symbolic strike, healing signet, res sig

That would give you +24 damage for every 4 ade built up.

Now let's compare that to some other ade fueled attack skills. I'm going to focus more on damage dealing skills because it is an easier comparison. I'll list a skill and make a comparison.

[cleave]
29 damage for 4 ade and takes up an elite slot. A free elite slot is a little better than 5 more damage but for spiking these skills are okay together.

[Executioner's Strike]
Double the ade cost, but you only pick up 14 more damage.

[keen chop]
Critical hits with an axe do about 42 damage against AL 60. I don't think that critical hits ignore armor so this skill would be better against lower AL foes and worse against high AL ones. So this skill might be a little better against squishies and a little worse against armored foes.

[whirling axe]
Same ade but only 19 damage. However this skill takes up an elite, it can't be blocked (but it's ade based so that kind of mitigates its advantages), and it cancels a stance on a target. So under some conditions where you need to cancel a stance and not waste all your ade, this might be a better choice, but in most cases not.

[fierce blow]
You'll do either +38 or +19 damage to a target. Assuming you can keep your target weakened, you'll do equivalent damage if you are using SS with a hammer. If you can't, SS is better.

[mighty blow]
+38 damage, but it costs 7 ade. So SS is a little more efficient.

[yeti smash]
19 damage for 6 ade isn't that great on its own. YS has a little more value if foes are clustered around your target which should be remembered in NM areas where targets will ball up a little more often.

[final thrust]
37 damage for 10 ade if you muck it up, 74 if you don't. You lose all your ade so either way so don't muck it up and use it as a chain ender and it'll serve you.

[galrath slash]
37 damage for 8 ade... SS is better.

[quivering blade]
38 damage for 5 ade but it takes up an elite slot. You can spike with SS fairly well, but you'd probably be better off with DS.

[standing slash]
38 damage for 6 ade is slightly better SS... btw, if you don't have an IAS up to meet this condition, you probably need to go back to the sticky at the top of the warrior forum and reread how to play a warrior.

So after comparing Symbolic Strike to some easily comparable skills, you can see it is a nonelite attack that trades a little bit of power for pressure. And this is with a fairly sensible set up... meaning you aren't going out of your way to milk all those extra points of damage by cluttering up your skill bar with skills you are better off without. In PvE it's an efficient skill for keeping the damage going. In other words, you can stick roughly to the standard template and get utility out of this skill.

In PvP, you might want to go another route if you plan to spike with your warrior (ie trade efficiency for a little more power) and you might want to ignore this skill altogether because you probably won't be bringing anything besides healing signet. However going /P for remedy signet or /Ra for antidote signet might be useful avenues.

Wild Karrde · Dec 31, 2008, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

I'd like to propose that in theory [symbolic strike] isn't that bad a skill to have along for a warrior under one condition: you don't get carried away. This skill seems like it would have use on a properly constructed warrior bar.

Usually a warrior's bar is supposed to look something like this:
1. Elite Attack
2. Attack
3. Attack
4. Attack
5. IAS
6. Cancel stance/utility skill
7. Utility
8. Res

So let's use this uber-basic set up: symbolic strike, healing signet, res sig

That would give you +24 damage for every 4 ade built up.

Now let's compare that to some other ade fueled attack skills. I'm going to focus more on damage dealing skills because it is an easier comparison. I'll list a skill and make a comparison.

[keen chop]
Critical hits with an axe do about 39.2 damage against AL 60. I don't think that critical hits ignore armor so this skill would be better against lower AL foes and worse against high AL ones. So this skill might be a little better against squishies and a little worse against armored foes.

So after comparing Symbolic Strike to some easily comparable skills, you can see it is a nonelite attack that trades a little bit of power for pressure. And this is with a fairly sensible set up... meaning you aren't going out of your way to milk all those extra points of damage by cluttering up your skill bar with skills you are better off without. In PvE it's an efficient skill for keeping the damage going. In other words, you can stick roughly to the standard template and get utility out of this skill.

In PvP, you might want to go another route if you plan to spike with your warrior (ie trade efficiency for a little more power) and you might want to ignore this skill altogether because you probably won't be bringing anything besides healing signet. However going /P for remedy signet or /Ra for antidote signet might be useful avenues.

First off.... go hit anything with 60 AL with keen chop... it does a good amount more that 39-40 dmg.

i Know with axe at 14 with a conjure at spec 10 it does 79 dmg to a 60 AL target.... and i think if i remember correctly its like 64 or so dmg without the conjure.

Symbolic Strike is kinda gimmicky. destroys your build if you try to stack up on too many signets and isnt all that worth bringing along a crapy heal (heal sig) for the dmg if you dont stack up on tons of signets.

Good to fool around with, bad if you want to actually be efficient and effective.

_Nihilist_ · Dec 31, 2008, 07:35 AM // 07:35

It's a cheap, 4A cost attack that does +12 dmg for your Rez Sig or DPS. No other Signets are really worth bringing on a Warrior primary bar. Gimmick comes to mind, nothing else. Well said Karrde.

cellardweller · Dec 31, 2008, 07:55 AM // 07:55

I'll give it to Koss during manditory missions/quests with signets of distraction/disruption + res sig. There are much better options for a human though, you're much better of with 2 damage skills and 3 utility.

Knockdowns/shouts > a really long spike from 4 +damage skills.

RotteN · Dec 31, 2008, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

in theory

In theory, communism works
In theory, combustion engines using petrol should've long been replaced
In theory ...

The whole thing goes down the drain when you realise healing signet isn't worth a skill slot. It's a poor skill in a bad attribute line.

you could've argued using [[antidote signet] but even then, [[mending touch] is usually a better option.

Dre · Dec 31, 2008, 10:54 AM // 10:54

[Crippling Slash][gash][symbolic strike][flail][rush][healing signet][Signet of Malice][resurrection signet]
12+1+1 sword
9+1 strenght
9+1 tactics

though i prefer switching out [healing signet] for [lion's comfort]

Xsiriss · Dec 31, 2008, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Who the hell uses healing sig? Tactics died ages ago. [Lion's Comfort] not only heals but builds up adrenaline, making your whining about how symbolic is uber pwnage compared to other attacks skills due to the adrenaline cost just wrong.

Greedy Gus · Dec 31, 2008, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Yeah, the best way to think of this skill is like a better version of cleave. I liked messing around with it on an SoJ war

Something like:

[dismember][symbolic strike][bull's strike][frenzy][rush][signet of judgment][healing signet][resurrection signet]

Or maybe a purge sig in for healsig in a heavy hex meta. Weak on spikes if you go this route with knocklock ability instead of a 3rd adren attack, but there's just not a good 3rd signet for a war bar yet so you're wasting that last slot just to power symbolic. Decent for splitting I suppose.

-Lotus- · Dec 31, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Its good on heroes who can't use a real build. pack them with symbolic strike, evis, fgj, res sig and a few mesmer signets (remember what they do with interrupts). pretty scary bonus damage.

Winterclaw · Dec 31, 2008, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Karrde, I tested the skill. With no strength or weapon bonuses, the base damage of the skill was 42 against AL 60 and 21 against AL 100. When using 10 strength and a +15 damage bonus, I was doing 54 and 29 damage. So the general point I was making stands, keen chop loses value as target armor goes up.

I agree it can be gimmicky, but if you use a moderate amount of sigs you can use SS as a normal weapon attack.

And to all the people complaining about healing sig, yes I know it's bad... that's why I called it an uber basic set up to begin with. You can replace it with something like remedy signet and still get value out of the slot.

Luminarus · Jan 01, 2009, 07:14 AM // 07:14

[Resurrection Signet][Antidote Signet][Poison tip Signet][Crippling Slash][Gash][Symbolic Strike][Rush] and [Frenzy] or [Flail]
or instead of [Crippling slash][Gash][Symbolic Strike], run [Eviscerate][Symbolic Strike][Agonizing Chop].

Can also hit up the dervish line for signets, like [Signet of Mystic Speed] (run with a smite monk with strength and honor, etc.

Other fun stuff involves the mesmer line:

[Signet of Humility][Leech Signet][Resurrection Signet] and any combo of ur choice.

However, the problem with symbolic is that its too gimmicky. You can set it up so that its friggen brilliant damage, but would you rather do 80 damage every 4 hits, or eviscerate/executioners every 8 hits. In the end damage output is less with eciscerate but symbolic lacks 6 free skills to play with.

Remeber, adrenaline goes up in all skills. So 2 8 adrenaline skills can be offloaded about as often as one 4 adrenaline skills (1 every 4 hits)

Arkantos · Jan 01, 2009, 08:32 AM // 08:32

You forget one thing when you're comparing all these attacks skills with symbolic strike - the other skills don't require signets to be effective.

Xsiriss · Jan 01, 2009, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

You forget one thing when you're comparing all these attacks skills with symbolic strike - the other skills don't require signets to be effective.

Win. Sure use it on heroes, I prefer sabway or derv spike but if thats what floats your boat.

Wild Karrde · Jan 01, 2009, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Karrde, I tested the skill. With no strength or weapon bonuses, the base damage of the skill was 42 against AL 60 and 21 against AL 100. When using 10 strength and a +15 damage bonus, I was doing 54 and 29 damage. So the general point I was making stands, keen chop loses value as target armor goes up.

I agree it can be gimmicky, but if you use a moderate amount of sigs you can use SS as a normal weapon attack.

And to all the people complaining about healing sig, yes I know it's bad... that's why I called it an uber basic set up to begin with. You can replace it with something like remedy signet and still get value out of the slot.

Running no strength means your bad at warrior... so I wouldnt even bother testing it like that.

I think your GW is broken if your only getting 54 damage with 9str and a conjure on a 60AL target. I am 100% positive I hit for 79 dmg when I use 9 str and a conjure, and then something like 59-65 without a conjure and 13 str. (14 axe + 13 str) (Ive not tested on the dumbies at the temp of balth. I know this from the mulitple times Ive used it in AB/JQ or whatever the hell Im doing as far as PvP goes when just fooling around, Im positive the targets didnt have armor reduction in anyway, and saying they may not have had max armor is not valid cause then every caster I attacked didnt have max armor.)

Your point of it being less effective at higher armor levels is true for just about every attack or skill the warrior has; the only thing that isnt affected is deepwound. Every skill that does dmg looses its value on higher armor targets, unless it ignors armor.

And Arkantos has one of the most valid points yet. The other skills dont need signets to be effective.

Winterclaw · Jan 01, 2009, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Karrde, I just wanted to get a base damage to make sure the critical damage was affected by AL. And I didn't use a conjure for my testing as it is irrelevant to the damage of the skill alone.

Quote:

Your point of it being less effective at higher armor levels is true for just about every attack or skill the warrior has

Incorrect, most attack skills like SS have bonus damage which ignores AL altogether. The part that you see losing damage is the weapon itself. Once you get

Ark, I completely agree with you. If you aren't going to be in a situation where you aren't going to be bringing two signets anyways, opt out of this skill. Basically SS is a skill that is okay to use in moderation when the conditions permit.

Div · Jan 02, 2009, 12:06 AM // 00:06

First of all, are you using this for PvE or PvP?

If PvE:
Then you wouldn't really need a healsig, since you'll be probably taking the majority of the damage, and healsig would hurt you more than heal. Also, you wouldn't be considering skills like cripslash or evis when you have better things like hundred blades, triple chop, and whirlwind attack.

If PvP:
You can run things like sig malice or antidote sig, but then you can't really compare the skill with something like executioners. Sure executioners is only 14 more damage for twice the adrenaline, but most of (higher level) PvP is revolved around damage compression and fast kills. You certainly wouldn't take a healsig (or any other sigs) in HA, and GvG is mostly about spike kills. I can see this being marginally useful in RA, but even there I'd take lions comfort over healsig.

Div · Jan 02, 2009, 12:06 AM // 00:06

First of all, are you using this for PvE or PvP?

If PvE:
Then you wouldn't really need a healsig, since you'll be probably taking the majority of the damage, and healsig would hurt you more than heal. Also, you wouldn't be considering skills like cripslash or evis when you have better things like hundred blades, triple chop, and whirlwind attack.

If PvP:
You can run things like sig malice or antidote sig, but then you can't really compare the skill with something like executioners. Sure executioners is only 14 more damage for twice the adrenaline, but most of (higher level) PvP is revolved around damage compression and fast kills. You certainly wouldn't take a healsig (or any other sigs) in HA, and GvG is mostly about spike kills. I can see this being marginally useful in RA, but even there I'd take lions comfort over healsig.

Whenitrainsitpours · Jan 02, 2009, 12:33 PM // 12:33

If you're doing an elite mission or HM dungeon, SS might be worth it if you bring Antidote Signet/LB Rez Signet.